The Official Freedom Reborn Universe Conversion Mod for FFvsTR

[UnkoMan]

Oh man... could I make that subject any longer? Probably, but I'll stop.

Okay, folks, here is the deal. There has been some talk in the mod forums. As some may know Benton Grey has been working on his DC Universe, according to him, mod. Basically what it does is add a slew of DC characters as built-ins. He plans to release a great deal of minimods, too, that would plug right in and utilize the already built-in characters. People jumped right aboard, and why not? It was a great idea. It even got people thinking of other versions of this. Death was planning on doing a Marvel Universe (I wonder how that's going, anyhow). Bearded came right out and started a thread that set off some ideas... Specifically this one.

http://freedomreborn.net/archive/index.php?topic=41872.0

After that came another thread:

http://freedomreborn.net/archive/index.php?topic=41969.0

And now comes this. Those other threads aren't so long. Easy read, really. But still, as a sum-up; So what do people think about a mod that would set forum members as built-in characters? Are people interested? Would people be willing to play test for balance? Would people like to establish ground rules? Do you think it would lead to fighting and bitter (no way) or good times and cheer (horray!)? Would people use this to build their own mini-mods around it? Should we perhaps establish an official timeline? Etc, etc, etc. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this.

Of course, maybe for that I should have used the general discussion forum. Maybe I'll make a reference post over there, assuming it's alright.

Anyhow, more discussion would be appreciated. I'm willing to take on the task of adding characters (and heck with M25's tool it'll be a piece of cake) and any custom FX. Actually, this'd be a good time to set a major ground rule right now:
Permission. I won't be responsible for this. I will assume everything sent to me will have proper readmes and be allowed to be used in this way. They are your own avatars, so why wouldn't they, but you might be using somebody's custom FX or something like that, and just forgot about it. Make sure you check everything first. I don't want to see any hassles about this sort of thing. Voicepacks too, if you want those. And whatever else there might be.

A couple of other notes, if this does end up happening... Origins and power descriptions and the like. Do you think they should be written by the person who makes the character or by one specific person (based on facts from each member), so as to give them a coherent sound. I know I like to listen to lots of aliteration. Love it. But that's just me, some people find it annoying.

Also, what about nemesis..es.. I know a few members have made some really great arch villains for their own avatars. Should these be included with the built-ins, or stick to actual forum members?

Hmm... what else? Oh yes, the timeline sort of thing. Do we want to make it as an official timeline and cohesive universe? It might require a bit of changing of some people's avatars (quite a few are from the FF universe), but most could probably be slotted in. Obviously it would be up to that paticular person how.

Anyhow, this is enough typing for now. Hopefully this starts some good, solid discussion.

[Lunarman]

Excellent! This sounds great, and I'll be happy to join in. It'd make a great mod and even if there are no scripted missions/fights it would make a base on which people could make mods about our community.


Ground rules: I say low level avs (no more than 6000pts) (which I'd say is better for a King of The Ring, and at least more adaptable to a campaign)
Actually, it might be better for everyone to submit fully trained files (as close to 10000 as possible) which you can then cut down to a low prestige cost by locking their abilities. For example, I'll give my 10000pt Lunarman and on FFedit someone sets the "Start Tier" or powers A to 2 and the "Start Tier" of powers B to 1 and the attributes to start at 2 as well. Do you catch my meaning? This would mean you could have fully fledged RR matches/ a campaign with leveling up. A quick change King of The Ring or just give players a better idea of what everyone's powers are.

So you (or who-ever) don't get a huge lump of writing to do I'd say each person should write a short paragraph (no more than 70 words or it won't fit) for their char. And a line (about 6 words) for their char's tag in game.


What do you think?

[Rick Battlemage]

I think it's a great idea, I guess one of the biggest problems would be getting it balanced and getting some heroes to cost no more than 10k. Not RB though he's usually around 8k  :cool:

Also I was wondering should heroes be made equal? Should Rick Battlemage (more of a support character) be able to handle let's say Reepicheep? (The butcher! :P) (I don't consider Reep uber just... stronger, never made our herofiles fight eachother though)

I like the idea about each member submitting their own discription mabey add a power description as well.

I can't contribute much but I've playtested a few mods mostly for testing the script but also testing for balance (all of them were premmy's  ^_^).

[UnkoMan]

Blanace is a very tricky thing, yes. For example, my hero file is in the 9000s. He is able, through clever playing, to take down Nuclear Winter in giant mode by himself. In fact, by himself, if you run away enough, he can take down most anybody. HOWEVER, he's far less effective in a team situation, since his powers are mostly area attacks, and unpredictable, thus he could easily accidently damage team members. This is how I justify his balance. If used purely by AI he also becomes less effective since he doesn't use the same hit and run tactics essential to his survival. A lot of my hero files are this way. Not with hit and run, but with very specific things they are really good at, balanced against a bunch of stuff they are not. Quite a few are balanced so they will be incredibly useful only when teamed with certain members. It makes a unique and more interesting game play, I think.

I'm also against a prestige limit. I don't think things should be limited to 10k. If they have to go over, they have to go over. Like I said, I base balance purely on play. However... yes some characters should be much harder. For example, whatever Randy's happens to be... he should be extremely difficult to defeat.

[Reepicheep]

Whoo! I was an example!

Tougher characters like Randy, myself or Previsionary (tending to be villains, see?) should have a higher prestige, yeah, but they should also have some sort of weakness. Like, throwing the exploding barrel at them will knock down their health massively, giving the heroes an advantage. Trying to hit them with brute force would just scratch their skin and they'll have your head on a pike in no time.

Heroes can be justified to be somewhat equal in terms of prestige, but villains need to be higher. Its, like, law. They also require some sort of tactic in order to be defeated. Randy, maybe the more sharkmen you kill, the weaker he becomes. Reep is useless at a distance, as well as a slow mover, so knock him back, he'll be done in no time. (Not to give you ideas. I'd rather you didn't beat me)

That said, Reep has no skin of his most recent costume, so its a little moot telling you this. Just the general idea on balance.

[UnfluffyBunny]

your problem is going to be... singling out which avs to include...
you CANT include everyone, you'll never get off the ground, and then you'll have to deal with people who are included wanting more control over how their av's are portrayed (example: ma supervillain avatar is used as the stage 1 boss, being stage 1 you presumably would have it as the easiest level, but villain is unhappy that his avatar is portrayed as the easiest to defeat), and people who havent been included unhappy because they havent been included in "the official freedom reborn universe" (a fix to this may be references to unincluded heroes and villains in conversations?)

anyway, I think that's pretty much why most FR mods have been done quietly and the characters used announced after it's too late for avatar changes

[UnkoMan]

Well there is no "stage 1 boss" since there wouldn't be any levels. And I would include everybody who sent me an avatar. See, that's why it's not a mod in the sense of missions and whatnot. That really would be too huge to do. If people want to make EZscript stories that can be plugged in, that's great. In fact, assuming Cat is willing, I'd love to host it at some site along with any EZscript stories other people make for it.

But this would basically be easy access to everybody's hero files, in the end. That's what it really amounts to.

[Volsung]

It sounds really good :)

I wonder which skills can a crazed toy maker have^^

[BentonGrey]

Well, you know I like the idea....I'm especially proud that my little project contributed in some way. ^_^  I'm against a limit, I'm not quite sure what 'ol Bent's powers will be yet, but I don't really want to be limited, and I'd really like for him to be a good solid bruiser.  I suppose writing up our own descriptions is a good idea, goodness know I've had enough practice lately!

[kkhohoho]

Sounds like a good idea. :) 

[The Hitman]

I've found a copy of FFvTR. It's on the way. I will do anything you ask to get this off the ground. Seriously. Anything. (Well, not ANYTHING- anything, but you get my drift.)

[Lunarman]

For balance here there really needs to be a prestige cap. If this mod comes out I will make a King Of The Ring mini campaign for it (hopefully) and it will be no fun without balance. I'd say we could sort characters into groups based on powers with a prestige cap for each. Obviously there should be very few people in the higher end groups and they will need consent from everyone to have an Avatar with such a high cost. For example a villain like Randy could have a very high cost due to a massive private army and powerful attacks.

Here's some sample groups:

Pushovers: People with little fighting prowess at all (think Gun Thugs) not sure if anyone has an Av like that. MAX=5000
Superpowered: The average superhero/villain (if average can be applied to superheroes) like Lunarman, Unkoman, Syn. MAX= 10000
High-powered: Heroes/villains with high power levels, above average. Think Sword or Hellscorp, Volsung, Reepicheep. MAX=17000
Galactic powered: Very powerful superheroes/villains such as Silver Surfer. Think Carravagio. MAX=20000
Overlords: Uber strong to take down. Think Timemaster or Entrophy. For people in this forum that would be Randy and people like that. MAX= 25000pts

What do you think of that?

This ranking system could therefore create some way of paring up heroes for fights.

[UnkoMan]

See, this is what I still don't get. Everybody keeps assuming prestige cost is the be all end all of balance. In my experience it is easily worked around. I've made heroes under 10k that have managed to take down Timemaster and Entropy simultainiously. Buuuuuut...

If that's what people want, alright. I mean, I only push my way of balance in case somebody is trying to cheat the system. I assume most people here wouldn't be trying to do that, though. Really, they just want their characters to play the way they like. And actually, Lunar, your costs don't seem too bad, although we might have to make a couple exceptions. For example, I have Afghan's hero file. It's about 19000 or something, I believe. But I would certainly not put him as Galactic powered. High-Powered maybe. Only maybe. Really it's his dang active defense that does it.

So, if we are allowed to make some exceptions. I think it would be nice to just take a gander at (or at least see the cost of) a few people's actual hero files, to see if this is conciveble. I don't want people to have to change their files too much, or start way toning down their hero just to try and fit, you know? Then we could set levels from there. I'd still like to ultimately test levels through play, though.

Yeah, man this fairness thing is pretty complicated after all. Especially when it involves such personal things.

And PS: Hitman? Good job on geting TR. I promise you won't be sorry.

[Blitzgott]

If we're all agreed that how much a character costs is not measure to how powerful he is, then it's pointless setting a prestige point limit.

I think people should just build their characters the way they want and what will or will not have to be tuned down will be decided during play-testing; but, regardless of what everybody says, Unkoman has the final word on everything, since he is the main man in charge of this project.

Just my two cents.

[UnkoMan]

And that... is why I don't really want to head up this project. I don't want to impose a final word, draw the line sort of thing. I'm not that sort of fella at all. I'm just offering to take the burden of adding heroes (which isn't much of a burden thanks to M25).

[Rick Battlemage]

Mabey heroes should be rated differently? (Though creating an entire rating system might be a bit overboard :P) Mabey rate them with numbers with 1 being a thug and 10 being Randy? I don't know... then again people would rate differently like I say someone would be a 7 and someone else would say he'd be a 6, so yeah rating might be troublesome. I don't think there should be any limits just rate them and separate them in different groups.

Also the thing with balance is you have to compare your hero to something or else you'd get big differences, is strength 4 superpowered or not? Things like that would all have to be taken into consideration I guess...

[Blitzgott]

Splitting the avatars in groups doesn't work, since avatar "X" may, for its creator, be part of a group "Y", while everybody else thinks he is part of a group "Z". Also, if you do the group thing, characters from the higher groups will probably have stuff they weren't originally meant to have just because they need to reach the prestige point minimum.

The only ground rule I can think off is not allowing combos, just because it'd be a pain in the rear setting them up (IMO. But, since I won't be the one adding the heroes, I wouldn't know. It's up to UnkoMan).

Edit: Edited.

[Reepicheep]

Very good point, Blitz. Perhaps teams could be picked out randomly at a 'hero/villain' basis, or extend it to 'hero/anti-hero/villain/neutral' as much as you like.

Or teams could be manually picked?

[Alaric]

I realize it would likely require a little more work on somebody's part, but coldn't you include, say, 3 versions of each avatar? One low-power-level, one medium, and one high? Or even just two- one designed to balance with the Freedom Force heroes, one more "anything goes"?

[BentonGrey]

I know I'd rather not do that.  I don't really see the point of not just allowing everyone to design their characters as they like.  I mean, so what if someone wants their guy to be uber, it's not like we'll be playing this competitively.

[Blitzgott]

I know I'd rather not do that.  I don't really see the point of not just allowing everyone to design their characters as they like.  I mean, so what if someone wants their guy to be uber, it's not like we'll be playing this competitively.

But weren't people going to make mini-mods for it? It'll be pretty hard to make something challenging to a bunch of uber characters.


I trust this community's common sense, so I say we should let everybody make their avatars the way they want. I just think it'd be good to have someone to make sure no character is game-breaking or anything of the sort. The "balancing" wouldn't be anything very strict, since we want every avatar to play as closely as possible to the way its creator wants it to.

[The Hitman]

Here's my suggestion on the matter:

1. Have everone submit their Herofiles. No Cap, no restrictions, exactly how the person envisions it.

2. Beta Testers would then play countless Rumble Room fights, pitting each character against each other. If there's one that's way overpowered, it'll stick out like a sore thumb.

3. Depower it a little, while trying not the ruin the overall original "feel" of the character.

It's not the best way to do it, but at least it's something.

[UnkoMan]

This is sort of the way I'd like to do it, really. The depowering, however, I'd rather leave up to the person whose avatar it actually is.

Buuut, I still like the idea of "groups" of power. I know my avatar is not meant to be all that powerful, really. Some people's are. Perhaps ask people what sort of group they feel they should be in? Even then...


After considering it, I think this project might work a lot easier as simply a large avatar hub. An easy way to get everybody's avatar as they play them. Then you don't have to worry about balance or anything like that. Of course then Lunarman wouldn't be able to do his "King of the Ring" thing so easily. But it'd be more accurate to each person. I don't want to have to impose a bunch of changes on people's characters to fit a specific idea of what a hero file should be like.


EDIT: Oh, I also wanted to mention this again. Arch-enemies. A few people have made indepth arch-enemies to their avatars. Some people actually make whole universes. Whereas I wouldn't want to include a whole universe, I think it may be neat to make an add on that could include people's arch-villains, which could be downloaded and merged with this. This would both include people's arch-villains (and therefore make even easier set up for some mini-mods) but is still optional, if people didn't want to bother with it. What do people think of that? (also somebody else would either have to do this or walk me through it simply, since I'm not sure what it would require.)

[Nymph]

(umm.....a few questions for my character)

Her best ability is where she summons a large man made of water.....and so its kinda like the Law and Order thing except he would take up a Hero point since he is the emodiment of a God. So maybe a summoner or Angelic ally kind of thing from FFX would work....I would just need a mesh/skin for him.

[Lunarman]

Angelic ally would work great in there Nymph. What abour using the fire elemental mesh from Irrational.

Ok everyone, I submit ;) . Everyone should create their chars as they like . I just feel that if anyone wants to make a mod from this (not just KoTR) they won't be able to without balancing all the avatars. Having to do that kinda takes away the point of this mod :( . That's why I feel we should stick to some sort of balance scheme. Even if we just balance it against Freedom Force Chars (fully leveled) not prestige. Most people have average superheroes, on par with Minuteman, El Diablo. Obviously in the RR your av will will because human AI is superior but if both played by a computer who wills should be less clear.

Bare in mind that this is only for the majority of avatars. Of course there are those among us who stick out in power such as Carragavio and Reepicheep who should be able to kill two or three FF members without breaking a sweat. But even so, when these hero files are submitted the more powerful ones will stick out.

To really decide what we are going to do we need some submissions.

Each submission needs:
Hero file/s (for shapeshifters)
Skins
Keyframes
Meshes
Any Custom FX
Any Custom Voices
In game hover description (no more than 7 words)
Full databank description (no more than 70 words)

Is that right? Have I missed anything?

[Reepicheep]

Yeah...

Sorta sucks that I don't have any of those on the list, huh?

[Carravaggio]

Yeah...

Sorta sucks that I don't have any of those on the list, huh?

Reep if you need a skin and hex/skope contact me and we'll see what we can cobble together

Angelic ally would work great in there Nymph. What about using the fire elemental mesh from Irrational.

yeah just colour it blue, dude, its not rocket science.

Bear in mind that this is only for the majority of avatars. Of course there are those among us who stick out in power such as Carraggavio and Reepicheep who should be able to kill two or three FF members without breaking a sweat. But even so, when these hero files are submitted the more powerful ones will stick out.

And that was my initial hesitation at being involved in this project. The fact is some characters ARE more powerful than others. I chose to make my avatar a world conquering evil superman type. On the other hand Intensity, for example, chose to make a top martial artist with jubilee like light powers.
i didn't want my character to be de-powered or penalised because i chose a powerful character while others chose ones less powerful (but equally as interesting).
Besides the best time i had in the rumble room was using the entire cast of x-men to bring down DC's Ultraman. Yeah it was unbalanced and he killed Cyclops with one punch, but he could really do that anyway (BTW Ultraman won :) ) Like Reep pointed out most of the most powerful characters tend to be villains, which means the heroes usually dogpile them anyway. Huge prestige costs don't help when there are twenty good guys pounding on you.

Still, so long as the no limit rule applies for prestige I'm going to submit my character for this noble endeavour. I've not released him before but this is a great cause to do so.

Also i'll tentatively put my hand up to HELP OUT with skins and hexes/skopes for those people who want to participate but never got an avatar made before.  This is pending on my workload, and how polite you all are.
If you wanna participate and need a character made, post a request somewhere (maybe here, if thats ok by Unko? at least we can keep it all in one place that way.) and ill see what i can do. Hey you might be lucky and some other FR'er might decide to take up your cause.
Unless your character has had a huge revamp recently, don't ask me to help out if you already have a skin/mesh/hex (or eight like some lucky people). Be fair and let everyone else have a go.

Good work getting this started Unkoman. Have you thought about a separate thread to showcase submissions to inspire/trap other FR'ers to get on board?

[Volsung]

Custom voice for any characters!
This will add some life to the game!

[Alaric]

Here's the problem you guys are overlooking, and why I was suggesting the "two or three character versions" thing; it's not just a matter of different avatars having different power levels. Different players create their avatars for entirely different SCALES. Some players try to fit their avatar's within the power scale used in the Freedom Force games, while others, who only use their avatars in rumble room battles and stuff, are thinking in terms of a more "comic-booky" scale. An avatar created on the second scale could end up much more powerful than one created on the first scale, even if the character is actually concieved as less powerful.

[Nymph]

The Fire elemental can't work though......she becomes unconscious and is at the heart of the "giant."
He is on par with a Transformer in size.......so that is why I said Law and Order thing.....or maybe its a sacrifice power?

but he is fairly Large.....